Curse

A11Eur0 · Aug 07, 2009, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

My Guildies and I have gone through FOW-all the quests, and everything-several times now. We don't use SF Assassins, Or 55s, or 600s. Just regular builds, and we usually manage to complete it in around 30-40 minutes tops...

All it takes is knowing what to do and when to do it...

SF ain't the problem. It's the way the mobs are set up...

Again the point being made is ignored merely to exclaim ones' greatness.

Your Guildies are not a PUG. The point you decided to contest with this reply is referring simply to PUGS and maybe some inexperienced group of friends. It's easier for a pug or a group of people to get a group together when they use a gimmick team build that's RELATIVELY easy to pick up and use. The thing is, these gimmick builds used in GW are not failsafe in the least. Each area has a mechanic in place that can bypass Shadow Form in some way or another, and the build of the perma needs to adjust to the area in question. Also, the perma needs to know the proper aggro and pull patterns in the area to maximize efficiency, the groups need to know when to hold back and when to fight, etc. If something breaks, the group needs to be able to adapt to prevent a total loss, which is easy in these elite areas in hard mode, especially since the majority of the team is 60Al casters.

vandevere · Aug 07, 2009, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Again the point being made is ignored merely to exclaim ones' greatness.

Your Guildies are not a PUG. The point you decided to contest with this reply is referring simply to PUGS and maybe some inexperienced group of friends. It's easier for a pug or a group of people to get a group together when they use a gimmick team build that's RELATIVELY easy to pick up and use. The thing is, these gimmick builds used in GW are not failsafe in the least. Each area has a mechanic in place that can bypass Shadow Form in some way or another, and the build of the perma needs to adjust to the area in question. Also, the perma needs to know the proper aggro and pull patterns in the area to maximize efficiency, the groups need to know when to hold back and when to fight, etc. If something breaks, the group needs to be able to adapt to prevent a total loss, which is easy in these elite areas in hard mode, especially since the majority of the team is 60Al casters.

Look, I'm in your camp here...

All I'm saying-or trying to say, at least-is that nerfing SF isn't as good an idea as some people might be making it out to be. I'm actually a casual player myself. I don't have time to spend hours grinding away at anything; and the reasons used to justify nerfing SF have been decidedly lacking...

Simath · Aug 07, 2009, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

*insert nonsense here*

Elitists, greatness, blahblahblah. Boring. Get a better argument. Preferably one which has substance.

I'm going to quote Ghost Dog, since you apparently haven't read, or chose to ignore his post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

"elitist" is the new escape hatch for people that can't debate their flawed opinion even though it makes no sense to use it that way it is popular

Enjoy.

A11Eur0 · Aug 07, 2009, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Whenever I read gurus, I get the feeling that nobody actually knows what the word "elitist" means.

To decry "elitism" in a game is ridiculous on its face, because a game is a merit-based activity. Any exclusivity, real or imagined, stems entirely from the metrics a game is designed to measure; we clump these metrics together and call them "skill". Generally speaking, there is no way for other players to keep you out of any area in GW - rather, you keep yourselves out by lacking skill.

tl;dr: gtfo with the "elitism" bullshit.

See, the problem with your analogy is that schoolwork is YOUR responsibility alone. You can get assistance here or there but the majority of the work is on your shoulders. In GW, you have teams of 8 to 12. A single player cannot go into an elite area alone and succeed in completing the entire objective EVEN WITH PERMA SF. It requires a team of skilled individuals, or a team of people who know how to use the builds.

Here's my point: new players are at a disadvantage when it comes to forming groups for elite areas. You say the individuals' skill levels are preventing them from completing the areas? The individuals may be able to use their builds very effectively and be able to adapt to some changes in situation, but if they are not familiar with the specific area and its environmental effects/spawn points/patrol patterns/etc. then he's not going to be able to succeed without help, and if he bothers to ask for help, the vast majority of GW pug players will chastise him for being a "noob" in a game that's 4 years old. If this was 2 years ago and some new player wanted to complete Urgoz's warren, he'd be able to join a PUG easily and trial and error it, because nobody at that time knew the specifics, the secrets, the strategies of completing it efficiently. 2 years later, you still have new players joining the game. You have players who have been around for a couple years but never really attempted these areas before wanting to give it a shot. They're being discriminated against because they don't know the area. These gimmick builds give these players a chance at experiencing the full extent of the game they paid for without the bulk of the abuse they'd normally get, because the build is "so easy". And guess what? They can, and regularly do, still fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Elitists, greatness, blahblahblah. Boring. Get a better argument. Preferably one which has substance.

I'm going to quote Ghost Dog, since you apparently haven't read, or chose to ignore his post.

Enjoy.

I didn't say a single thing about being "elitist" in the post you quoted, and your half-witty little trendy edit of the post shows that you didn't read it at all and are trying to hide that fact from the casual viewer. Hypocrisy, gotta love it.

I have obviously been able to explain my viewpoints with more than just the "elitist" argument, but if you choose to ignore the blatantly obvious trend in GW "experienced" players to disclude newer, less-experienced players due to them just not being "good enough", that's your flaw. It's a viewpoint running rampant throughout online gaming and those who choose to ignore it or write it off are most likely those who subscribe to it.

reaper with no name · Aug 07, 2009, 07:15 PM // 19:15

If SF was only a farming skill, I wouldn't care (which is why I don't mind 55 monks and the like). However, that's not what SF is. SF is complete invulnerability for 95% of PvE. Almost nothing can hurt you. And the few things that can? They can't kill you, because even with 33% less damage, you can still gank stuff pretty well.

It is godmode, pure and simple. Godmode has no place in this game. And even if it did, it's not fair to reserve it for one profession and one profession only. Give everyone the ability to maintain SF indefinitely, and then maybe there will be an argument that SF is ok.

A11Eur0 · Aug 07, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

My point is that the fans of PvE skills/consumables/SF etc are fans suited to an entirely different type of game, drawn to GW by the 'no monthly fee' mantra and pretty graphics. Sadly, GW is changing to suit their whims, and the original fanbase gets very little of what interests them.

Original fanbase? Look at my join date. Thanks much. I was one of the first non-beta players to join, as I bought my copy the day before it was supposed to hit the shelves and registered it early morning the next day. Who, other than beta players, are more "original fanbase"? That throws your entire argument out of the water.

Your analogy with Wu-Tang and GaGa is also flawed because one can still experience any new content in GW the old way, it's not like Anet is only releasing new content for people who run gimmick builds.

I love to read everyone's responses saying that Perma SF is something even close to god mode, which is clearly is not. Shadow form affects attacks and spells alone. It does not block signets, PBAoE, "skills", touch skills, or environmental effects. It's not "invincibility", it's a rather strong form of "protection" that quite frankly is rather fragile. Sure, just sitting there you can maintain SF with three skills alone. But to DO ANYTHING USEFUL you require extra skills, such as stoneflesh aura to block hundred blades, IAU and Dark Escape to avoid PBAoE, Trample, Shock, etc, and massive self-healing to counter touch lifesteal and damage. Then you have to rely on your team to be able to deal most of the damage(with UWSC as really the only exception to this rule). You need consumables, which offer up a money sink and a market for players who choose not to engage in these speed clears.

It helps everyone, and really does not hurt anyone. Sure, you can go into ToA and advertise that you're making a balanced group with your warrior and get laughed at, but was it any different at all before these speed clears? Not really. A good amount pug players that wanted to join were bad anyway, and were subject to build or title discrimination. It doesn't matter what the flavor of the month build is, people will discriminate. These gimmick builds ,which are referred to by those of you who really haven't even used them as so-called "easy god-mode" builds, reduce this discrimination by a degree for these players merely wishing to experience the entirety of Guild Wars. What's wrong with that? With or without these builds, you're still going to have a hard time forming groups for something different. It's that simple. Please don't ignore the past when discussing the present...it makes you look ignorant.

EDIT for a post made while writing this:

Quote:

SF is complete invulnerability for 95% of PvE.

That's complete and utter bullshit, and exactly the type of argument that's spreading so much misconception about the skill. 95% of PvE. Sure....besides 100% of the Crystal Desert with touch skills and PBAoE bypassing this "complete invulnerability", 90% of the Desolation which will still kill you when you enter the sulfur sands without a wurm(which you can't affect with SF...shock shock), Anywhere with PBAoE dervishes with enchantment removal skills, mandragors with headbutt, Dredge with Shove and other touch/PBAoE skills in dungeons and Echovald, etc etc etc. Has my point been made sufficiently? There are plenty of counters to Shadow Form in PvE, scattered throughout every area. Hell, even Charr have ignite arrows that, yes, bypasses Shadow Form. All of these require added skills which apply extensive energy pressure to survive, and some can't even be stopped at all, and will kill you dead outright. The actual amount of PvE that's totally blocked by SF is probably more on the order of 30%, definitely much less than other builds such as, say, 600/smite. Why isn't there any opposition to 600/smite dungeon farmers out there? What makes Shadow Form so evil, when it's used in a very limited sense to achieve anything worthwhile, and that requires a full team to do so?

reaper with no name · Aug 07, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Yes, because hundred blades is everywhere.

How many enemies have touch skills? Signets? PBAoE? Very few.

How many have attacks and spells? Nearly all? Thank you for proving my argument.

Your own argument defeats itself. All SF does is offer invulnerability. If it wasn't invulnerability, it wouldn't be used. People would just use other forms of farming. Clearly, then, it is practical invulnerability.

A11Eur0 · Aug 07, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Yes, because hundred blades is everywhere.

How many enemies have touch skills? Signets? PBAoE? Very few.

How many have attacks and spells? Nearly all? Thank you for proving my argument.

Your own argument defeats itself. All SF does is offer invulnerability. If it wasn't invulnerability, it wouldn't be used. People would just use other forms of farming. Clearly, then, it is practical invulnerability.

I challenge you to create a list of areas that don't have anything that can bypass shadow form in one way or another. Yes, every area has spells and attacks. But all it takes is one signet of judgement, one group of Vile Touchers, one dervish with PBAoE enchantment removal to make your day end real fast. That's not invulnerability. That's a fragile form of protection that requires three skills to make work, and more to make any use out of, with intense energy pressure and enemy skills to think about. Not god mode, not an easy button.

Celebrian · Aug 07, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Nerf it to be honest. Guild Wars has become dull and boring in the last few years anyway, mainly because PvE in GW is retard proof. A new challenge would be fun...at least until we all bugger off to Aion anyway.

Deakon · Aug 07, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Just wondering if those calling for the nerf of SF think that these areas will suddenly fill with players wanting to spend four hours clearing UW? Or will it just turn into HA with the "you're not good enough to join our group?"

Simath · Aug 07, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

I didn't say a single thing about being "elitist" in the post you quoted, and your half-witty little trendy edit of the post shows that you didn't read it at all and are trying to hide that fact from the casual viewer. Hypocrisy, gotta love it.

LOL "the casual viewer" gotta love that. Always casual this and elitist that. They crop up in all your posts. So dull, so monotonous.

Quote:

I have obviously been able to explain my viewpoints with more than just the "elitist" argument, but if you choose to ignore the blatantly obvious trend in GW "experienced" players to disclude newer, less-experienced players due to them just not being "good enough", that's your flaw. It's a viewpoint running rampant throughout online gaming and those who choose to ignore it or write it off are most likely those who subscribe to it.

I will take the time to address this. Our arguments have nothing to do with older players vs. new players, or experienced players vs inexperienced players. That line of thought was injected into this thread by you, because you have trouble spewing anything but the elitist and casual player drivel. Our argument is against a single skill. Not having the ability to abuse that skill does not put players at a disadvantage. New players have always played this game without that skill, and will always be able to play the game without the skill. Shadow Form is not a reliance upon which they must use as a crutch to get through the game, but it is a luxury that has been abused and needs fixing.

You're boring me with this casual player insipid drivel. Find a new argument, and beat that into the ground.

Burst Cancel · Aug 07, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

They're being discriminated against because they don't know the area. These gimmick builds give these players a chance at experiencing the full extent of the game they paid for without the bulk of the abuse they'd normally get, because the build is "so easy". And guess what? They can, and regularly do, still fail.

First of all, you're conflating two different problems: game difficulty, and difficulty finding a group. The latter problem exists for everyone, including the veterans, and is generally independent of skill, experience, or any other in-game metric. Any newbie in a PvE guild/alliance can pull together a group of 8 or 12 to do the elite areas. A veteran has no inherent or implied advantage in forming groups, because in town they have no way of proving to anyone else that they actually know what they're doing.

The point is, difficulty itself has always segregated people according to skill, whether in video games, sports, academics, work, or anything else. For any given task, there will be those that are competent, and those that are incompetent, and the latter are naturally excluded. I'm not a professional athlete, a brilliant musician, or a genius researcher, so I don't expect to able to participate in the arenas reserved for those people. Similarly, in any given video game, I don't expect to be able to progress to the next level if I can't beat the preceding one; I recognize that some stages or difficulty modes are simply beyond my current ability. To call this sort of exclusion "elitist", as some sort of criticism, is idiotic.

A11Eur0 · Aug 07, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celebrian

Nerf it to be honest. Guild Wars has become dull and boring in the last few years anyway, mainly because PvE in GW is retard proof. A new challenge would be fun...at least until we all bugger off to Aion anyway.

So, nerf something merely because you don't like to play the game any more?

It's not going to be a new challenge, it's still the same old game without a way for newer players to play it.

If SF gets nerfed, it'll be the death knell for anything High end, and you better hope you're in a guild or have a group of friends who already have things set up, because you'll be hard pressed to find pugs willing to run balanced through these areas.

pipersmurf · Aug 07, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

i've honestly noticed that ppl always complain about things because then can't do it, just because someone doesnt have the skill to do something doesnt mean they have to be babies cause others can, hell yea i do uwsc and fowsc but when i wanna kill time and hang out i dont mind doing then the normal way i think it should be you option to do this however u wanna do it with out ppl crying and getting it nerfed cause they are pmsing

you should just do things your way and let others do it their way

Celebrian · Aug 07, 2009, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

So, nerf something merely because you don't like to play the game any more?

It's not going to be a new challenge, it's still the same old game without a way for newer players to play it.

If SF gets nerfed, it'll be the death knell for anything High end, and you better hope you're in a guild or have a group of friends who already have things set up, because you'll be hard pressed to find pugs willing to run balanced through these areas.

Yes

It will be a new challenge. Everything is completeled with SF these days. DoA, FoW, UW even ToPK solo's. Deep and Urgoz are exceptions as they are completed easily with warriors as tanks.

Take a look at my guild, you would think we would be hit the hardest huh?

A11Eur0 · Aug 07, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipersmurf

i've honestly noticed that ppl always complain about things because then can't do it, just because someone doesnt have the skill to do something doesnt mean they have to be babies cause others can, hell yea i do uwsc and fowsc but when i wanna kill time and hang out i dont mind doing then the normal way i think it should be you option to do this however u wanna do it with out ppl crying and getting it nerfed cause they are pmsing

you should just do things your way and let others do it their way

This argument would be much better suited with proper punctuation...otherwise I agree wholeheartedly.

I have yet to see one valid argument claiming how SF has hurt their abilities to do anything in this game without using it. Perhaps people should set aside their one-sided viewpoints and take a step back. Step back and look at what would happen without SF there. Will it magically cause people to be "better players" and choose to run balanced teams? No. Will it cause people to leave that area completely, if not THE GAME and go elsewhere? Likely. Nerfing SF will only serve to hurt the game for anyone who isn't already part of a guild/alliance that does these areas with balanced groups effectively.

I've also seen in this thread that "any player in a pve alliance can get a group"...bull. I've been in a multitude of PVE alliances and very few of them had enough people online at a time willing to drop what they're doing and complete a dungeon or elite area without using the flavor of the month builds. Those alliances that DO, such as the old TAM alliance, discriminated against players asking to join, based upon their completed titles, time spent playing the game, and prior experiences with these high-end areas. Good luck getting in when you're a newbie to the area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celebrian

Yes

It will be a new challenge. Everything is completeled with SF these days. DoA, FoW, UW even ToPK solo's. Deep and Urgoz are exceptions as they are completed easily with warriors as tanks.

Take a look at my guild, you would think we would be hit the hardest huh?

Overgeneralizations make me laugh. Everything? Really? You mentioned 4 areas, that's everything? You can't complete most dungeons with perma SF. You can't complete most PvE missions with Perma SF. Eventually you have to get in touch with reality and realize how stupid your arguments are. Everything. Laugh.

And I have no idea what your guild is, does, or likes to do, so I don't know what you're trying to get at.

One more touch on the "elitist" portion of this discussion:

Claiming that "new, unskilled players shouldn't be in these areas" is hands-down an ELITIST STATEMENT. It stinks of it. Who are you to claim that new players shouldn't be ALLOWED or ABLE to partake in 100% of the game they shelled out money for? Sure there's the whole "if you can't swing it, you shouldn't be given an easy card" but it's not an easy card. It's easiER, but not EASY. Yes it is being abused, but by whom? Not new players, but older, experienced players who CAN run things the harder way, but choose not to. All it does is give them a little more chance at something that really doesn't matter anyway. How does that affect you at all? It does not, whether you choose to believe it or not. Their desire to run a certain build has NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER on how you can experience your game, because if they did not have these builds, they'd have other builds and still likely not run balanced.

toocooltang · Aug 07, 2009, 08:09 PM // 20:09

A11Eur0-

Your argument that shadowform allows people with minimal time to play elite areas is completely flawed. All the shadowform farms are very heavily reliant upon PVE skills as a source of direct damage or PVE skills are needed to buff the damage to acceptable levels.

With the above reliance on PVE skills for ____ SC you need to have EOTN and you need at least play through the game and get decent ranks (r8+) for it to be truly effective. I know some people don’t get their ranks high, but they really should be maxed or near it to effectively run the builds. Now who has time to grind out 56k points four times over, or if you max them 160k points four times? This can be done quickly through HM hero hand books but again, the casual player won’t have time or the knowledge to do this .

There is also the issue with professions. When the CRYWAY groups in DOA first started, the major source of damage was ER criers, well now that bar is dead, time to reroll a PVE char. The cryway groups have moved onto FOC necros. You should also remember that before the SF buff nobody used sins for elite areas. Now once the buff occurred everyone started sins and ran them through all the games so they could farm. This again brings up the point that for a causal player with limited knowledge it would be very hard to do this. Also each time you reroll a char you have to invest money into weapons, armor heros etc; again another thing the casual player wont have (money)

You can also look back to URSAN, at first it was great everyone could play on any class. Then as time went on people realized Warriors were the best class, so everyone made a warrior and grinded out R10 norn. Also if you wished to participate in DOA you had to have at least R8 LB, again this was more grind of PVE titles and again limiting casual players.

To summarize, the elite areas aren’t for the truly casual player that plays the game for a couple hours a week. With balanced you are required to have significant knowledge of the game or with speedclear groups you are required to grind out PVE titles. The upside to balanced groups though is that they don’t really very heavily on PVE skills and can be organized by one knowledgeable player who ineffective “leads” the group. Of course this excludes pugging.

EDIT- In response to your edit. The statement that your play style has no affect on me is true in a direct terms because guildwars is so instanced based. Indirectly it is not however. Do you need proof? Lets go back to ursan, it was common for ursan pugs to complete DOA in 2-2.5 hours in HM, when DOA was first completed it would often times take 4 or more hours to complete. All the GEMS from DOA were 100k + e and who knows how much the first armbrace sold for.

Once the word got out and URSAN clears of DOA the price of armbraces dropped very rapidly and have remained very depressed, even to this day. Well the obvious statement is this is great for the casual player who doesnt have the money to buy an armbrace. This is so wrong because even now armbraces are about 200k. I do not know of any casual player that will spend 200k on A single weapon, for the simple reason they only make money by playing the game.

The true reason people liked ursan and now shadowform is its "known" Most elite areas have been completed many times over using shadowform, you can easily find guides written by the so called "elistest" you talk about. The "elistest" took the time to figure out how to utilize a broken game mechanic to its fullest extend, they then shared it (thanks elitest). So now that you have an area broken down and a checklist written out on how to complete the area you can farm your heart out, but you will defend shadowform as not broken because you cannot see any other way to do your farm.

A nerf to shadowform will not affect an elitest player (or guild) because they have a deep understanding and knowledge of the game mechanics, they will rework their builds and test them over and over til they have it perfect.

kanuks · Aug 07, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

A11Eur0-

Your argument that shadowform allows people with minimal time to play elite areas is completely flawed. All the shadowform farms are very heavily reliant upon PVE skills as a source of direct damage or PVE skills are needed to buff the damage to acceptable levels.

With the above reliance on PVE skills for ____ SC you need to have EOTN and you need at least play through the game and get decent ranks (r8+) for it to be truly effective. I know some people don’t get their ranks high, but they really should be maxed or near it to effectively run the builds. Now who has time to grind out 56k points four times over, or if you max them 160k points four times? This can be done quickly through HM hero hand books but again, the casual player won’t have time or the knowledge to do this .

There is also the issue with professions. When the CRYWAY groups in DOA first started, the major source of damage was ER criers, well now that bar is dead, time to reroll a PVE char. The cryway groups have moved onto FOC necros. You should also remember that before the SF buff nobody used sins for elite areas. Now once the buff occurred everyone started sins and ran them through all the games so they could farm. This again brings up the point that for a causal player with limited knowledge it would be very hard to do this. Also each time you reroll a char you have to invest money into weapons, armor heros etc; again another thing the casual player wont have (money)

You can also look back to URSAN, at first it was great everyone could play on any class. Then as time went on people realized Warriors were the best class, so everyone made a warrior and grinded out R10 norn. Also if you wished to participate in DOA you had to have at least R8 LB, again this was more grind of PVE titles and again limiting casual players.

To summarize, the elite areas aren’t for the truly casual player that plays the game for a couple hours a week. With balanced you are required to have significant knowledge of the game or with speedclear groups you are required to grind out PVE titles. The upside to balanced groups though is that they don’t really very heavily on PVE skills and can be organized by one knowledgeable player who ineffective “leads” the group. Of course this excludes pugging.

Totally agree. A11Eur0- is obviously scared to death by the potential SF nerf. Looks like many players will have to learn guild wars all over again. "WTF I had totally forgot about this red bar known as life".

MMSDome · Aug 07, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

I don't pve anymore so an outside perspective may be good for this thread.

Why shouldn't SF be nerfed? It is easy to just mash your face on the keyboard and complete everything with ease. Of course it should be nerfed so people actually need to try in pve again, well "kind of" try.

Missions such as FoW and UW were meant to be difficult and completing them in less than 20 minutes defeats the purpose of why they are there in the first place. I suggest they either nerf it hard or they just remove end mission chests because the reward exceeds the effort put into a speed clear.

These missions should be difficult and they are meant to take time, the whole "people can do it that don't have time" argument is completely void as a-net is not catering to these people. If you don't have time then don't enter the mission and you can do it later when you do have time. It also makes no sense when a majority of people that are doing these speed clears and abusing shadow form are not the people with little time to play but they are grinding these missions with shadow form.

A11 stop using the little time to play argument because it is a false argument.

Give it a smiters boon nerf.

Burst Cancel · Aug 07, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Claiming that "new, unskilled players shouldn't be in these areas" is hands-down an ELITIST STATEMENT. It stinks of it. Who are you to claim that new players shouldn't be ALLOWED or ABLE to partake in 100% of the game they shelled out money for?

Try reading my post again - or hell, for the first time.

Nobody needs to "claim" anything. Games inherently lock out anyone that doesn't meet the required skill level. This is true for any activity that isn't completely braindead, including pretty much everything in life. Ever tried applying for a job you don't qualify for? Going to cry about "elitism" when they won't let amateurs play at Carnegie Hall?

Consider this: anyone who can't beat Thunderhead Keep is unable to "partake in 100% of the game they shelled out money for", and this occurs even if none of the "elitists" say anything. The game does it all on its own. And this principle applies to everything in the game: if you can't beat something, you're being excluded. Unless you have a game that is so easy that anyone can complete everything, somebody is going to be prevented from partaking in 100% of the game they paid for. But strangely enough, nobody seems to scream about elitists when they find a game they can't beat. Why is it okay that some people can't beat DMD Mundus in Devil May Cry, but not okay that they can't beat elite areas in GW?